Finally planning permission has been allowed (on appeal) for Matthew Castle from the Snooty Fox to provide a bar and al fresco dining in the central area of Newbury’s historic Market Place.

Unfortunately, the permission has come too late for the summer of 2010, but Matthew told newbury.net earlier this week, that he will use the winter months to plan for spring 2011. He has to arrange for discreet holes to be drilled in the surface of the Market Place to support the canopy.

It is nearly four years, since the Piazza was completed. Several restaurants have provided al fresco on the periphery, but until now no one has taken advantage of the central area. The Market Place makeover is believed to have cost upwards of £800,000 and was constructed using a specialist team from Portugal.

The Portuguese will be returning in mid September to carry out remedial repairs to the surface which has been cracking up, particularly after the heavy frost and snow experienced last winter.

After visiting the site on 17 August 2010, the inspector, R J Yuille MSc Dip TP MRTPI allowed the appeal, making the following observations:

The Market Place is a fine space surrounded by buildings, including a number of imposing properties such as the Corn Exchange and the Town Hall. Care has clearly been taken to enhance the area with the use of granite set surfacing and carefully selected seats and street lighting.

It is however, more than just an open area. As befits a market place it is a busy area through which pedestrians, buses and taxis all pass and around its edges are a number of cafes outside which are tables and chairs set under awnings or umbrellas. Some of these are separated from the footway by temporary screens.

The proposed canopy would, by reason of its bulk, be a more prominent feature than are the umbrellas for which planning permission already exists. However, as long as the proposed canopy was of a suitable colour and finish and as long as a suitable and safe means of securing it to the surface of the Market Place could be devised – and these are both matters which could be dealt with by condition - I do not consider it would have a harmful effect on the appearance of the area.

Market places are traditionally spaces where semi permanent structures, such as is proposed, are put up and taken down as the need arises. As long as the proposed canopy would be taken down when not in use – and again this is something that could be required by way of a planning condition – it would not be out of keeping with the character of the area.

Great,

plastic cutlery, plastic glasses & food carried 250 yards before you get it!

I was going to say judging by the huge volume of replies we are all overjoyed at this news !!!

Will it be  worth finding a place to park the car and then walking  to the market place just to drink and snack.Not very much of interest to look at whilst eating from your plastic plate

Quoted from 8

Will it be  worth finding a place to park the car and then walking  to the market place just to drink and snack.Not very much of interest to look at whilst eating from your plastic plate

After spending a fortune on paving the market place, the council has consistenty refused permission for it to be used by the pubs in the market place for tables and chairs.  After the judgement of the inspector, the Council will be hard pressed to refuse permission for places such as the Hatchet and Queens to put tables and chairs outside to the front.  I suggest you will have more interesting things to look at in the market place than sitting, as now, in a car park at the rear.  Well done Matt for winning a judgement for common sense.

Quoted from jay

After spending a fortune on paving the market place, the council has consistenty refused permission for it to be used by the pubs in the market place for tables and chairs.  After the judgement of the inspector, the Council will be hard pressed to refuse permission for places such as the Hatchet and Queens to put tables and chairs outside to the front.  I suggest you will have more interesting things to look at in the market place than sitting, as now, in a car park at the rear.  Well done Matt for winning a judgement for common sense.

The idea was for pubs & restaurants actually in the Market Place to have tables & chairs outside. Some do. The idea wasn't for one 250 yards away. It isn't common sense. In effect what he is trying to get is a second outlet in the market place on the cheap.

The council won't be refusing either the Hatchet or the Queens.

Quoted from 78

In effect what he is trying to get is a second outlet in the market place on the cheap.

I may be wrong here, but I think you'll find all his costs'n'stuff were met by the L.V.A. so in fact he's got it for free.


Threep.

Quoted from 78

The idea was for pubs & restaurants actually in the Market Place to have tables & chairs outside. Some do. The idea wasn't for one 250 yards away. It isn't common sense. In effect what he is trying to get is a second outlet in the market place on the cheap.

The council won't be refusing either the Hatchet or the Queens.

Sorry I cant recall any being in the new paved market square.  Corn Exchange is on the pavement and so is Document House, The Wagon & Horses and Hogs Head.  Eating places such as the brasseries is on the pavement as well as Strada and the french place.  Hatchet has been denied frontage on several occassions since the revamp was completed but, as I said, the council will now be hard pressed to refuse permission now Matt, who is 250 yards away has won the appeal.

Won an appeal dependant on several stipulations. I seem to remember permission being granted for some screens, but nothing came of that.

Pavement / Market place - all the same to me.

Quoted from 78

The idea was for pubs & restaurants actually in the Market Place to have tables & chairs outside. Some do. The idea wasn't for one 250 yards away.  It isn't common sense. In effect what he is trying to get is a second outlet in the market place on the cheap.

At the moment, no-one has tables and chairs IN the Market Place, they only have them round the edge of the Market Place - big difference.

Quoted from 78

The council won't be refusing either the Hatchet or the Queens.

Oooh, do you have some inside info on the workings of the planning dept that the rest of us mere mortals aren't privy to?

Quoted from 78

Won an appeal dependant on several stipulations. I seem to remember permission being granted for some screens, but nothing came of that.

Pavement / Market place - all the same to me.

If you dont know the difference between the market place and the pavement, it is fortunate the market place is no longer a car park.   We are talking about the big square thing in the middle that has fancy brickwork that cost £80,000 for Portugese builders to put down.

The screens in the market place was a one off for the world cup and permission was granted to late for this to be put into action.  We are now talking about customers in the market place during the summer.  Matt has won a test case, as the Snooty Fox is the furthest business from the market place that would wish to use the facilities.  From memory the stipulations are a canopy in muted colours and discreet fixings for same.

Quoted from jay

We are talking about the big square thing in the middle that has fancy brickwork that cost £80,000 for Portugese builders to put down.

£800,000.00 actually!  

Quoted from jay

If you dont know the difference between the market place and the pavement, it is fortunate the market place is no longer a car park.   We are talking about the big square thing in the middle that has fancy brickwork that cost £80,000 for Portugese builders to put down.

The screens in the market place was a one off for the world cup and permission was granted to late for this to be put into action.  We are now talking about customers in the market place during the summer.  Matt has won a test case, as the Snooty Fox is the furthest business from the market place that would wish to use the facilities.  From memory the stipulations are a canopy in muted colours and discreet fixings for same.

I seem to remember it was to do with cost, not time. At Glastonbury they managed to errect screens in 24hrs for the World Cup.

Quoted from Shabba

At the moment, no-one has tables and chairs IN the Market Place, they only have them round the edge of the Market Place - big difference.


Oooh, do you have some inside info on the workings of the planning dept that the rest of us mere mortals aren't privy to?

A big difference in that having something in the middle of the market place is going to require some sort of secure semi permanent structure? Basically he is opening a new outlet.

Quoted from 78

A big difference in that having something in the middle of the market place is going to require some sort of secure semi permanent structure? Basically he is opening a new outlet.

What's wrong with that?

Quoted from user23.3

What's wrong with that?

well, what about market day for one.

Quoted from user23.3

What's wrong with that?

Should residents be subsidising a business?

Quoted from 78

A big difference in that having something in the middle of the market place is going to require some sort of secure semi permanent structure? Basically he is opening a new outlet.

No.  The report says, and so does my previous post, that a temporary canopy is required, in a muted colour, and discreet fixing (similar to the current market fixings), in the floor.  

Quoted from 26

Should residents be subsidising a business?

I know there a few flats in the alley and I believe some over the shops by the Kennet centre, but I cannot understand how they would be subsidising this.

Quoted from jay

I know there a few flats in the alley and I believe some over the shops by the Kennet centre, but I cannot understand how they would be subsidising this.

He just can't understand it

Quoted from jay

No.  The report says, and so does my previous post, that a temporary canopy is required, in a muted colour, and discreet fixing (similar to the current market fixings), in the floor.  

So every night the staff will be taking it down & storing it away till the next day?

Quoted from 26

Should residents be subsidising a business?

I don't see how we would be subsidising this business.

Quoted from 78

So every night the staff will be taking it down & storing it away till the next day?

Why not, it happens with the exterior of the pub every night.

Quoted from 78

So every night the staff will be taking it down & storing it away till the next day?

Like the market stalls do every Saturday and Thursday.

Quoted from jay

Like the market stalls do every Saturday and Thursday.

we must be expecting different things.

Quoted from 78

we must be expecting different things.

Presumably it will have to be removed for the markets every Thursday and Saturday and for the Sunday farmers' markets.

But won't they be hoping to be selling alcohol at these busy times?

Quoted from 78

But won't they be hoping to be selling alcohol at these busy times?

I'm sure they would love to be operating at market times - but surely the space will be filled with market stalls.

Which raises an interesting issue - market stalls pay rent for the space they use; how much are the Town Council going to get from the Snooty Fox?

Interesting point.

Is the alcohol actually going to be stored & served from the market place? If so, this isn't a few tables & chairs. Is there going to be a till? Storage?

Or are 'waiters' going to be carrying trays of drinks from the Pub itself?

I suspect they'll set up a bar every night, I presume the choice might be more limited than in the pub itself.

I hope I don't ever have to sit on the table where the fish stall was during the Thursday market.

Isn't there some local ordinance about drinking in the street in Newbury.

Not any more.


Threep.

It was discreetly kicked into the long grass, as it were!

Quoted from user23.3

I hope I don't ever have to sit on the table where the fish stall was during the Thursday market.

I don't think it will be compulsory to use this new venture, I'm sure you will be allowed to execise your right to walk past it and into a pub if you want a drink.